Sitting on the tube

[fluffymark]

atreic and the_alchemist have been having a LJ discussion and poll (? now vanished ?) on the rights and wrongs of giving up your seat to someone on the tube. Go read.

Which leads me rather shamefully to this morning's journey in. *bigsigh*

Managed to get a seat on the Central Line at Leytonstone, which was good. At Stratford, a woman boarded, moved in front of the seats and started glaring at everyone. I wondered what she wanted - she looked a bit insane. A few minutes later someone else offered her their seat, which she sulkily took. It transpired that she wanted a seat because she was pregnant, but she didn't look pregnant. A very minor bulge, yes, but only obvious after she'd sat down. I felt horribly guilty about not spotting this, and failing to offer my seat, and she sat opposite me and glared at me all the way to Bank, which didn't help any and really began to freak me out. What should I have done? *confused* I mean if she was obviously pregnant I'd have happily given up my seat, but I really didn't notice she was until too late. *distressed*

Now I'm beginning to think that these Badges for Commuters aren't such a bad idea after all.

Comments

[ewtikins.livejournal.com]

It's probably a lot more obvious to her than it is to other people, especially with winter clothing etc.

I give up my seat for older people or people who obviously need to sit, but only if my back has not been hurting that day. It bothers me when people assume that just because I look healthy I am going to be comfortable standing. If my back is sore and standing is going to make it worse and someone actually asks me for my seat, I usually just explain I have a bad back and ask them to ask someone else. This doesn't happen very often, but nobody has had a problem with it yet. Also, on one or two occasions on crowded trains I have asked to sit down on account of my back hurting (although I am less likely to do this than to keep my seat).

Given the number of things which can make standing uncomfortable for people, and the fact that many of them are not immediately visible, I don't think anyone should automatically expect others to stand and offer their seat. For all she knows, you might have a bad back and knee problems and one leg longer than the other and be in a lot of pain and really not in good shape to stand up. How rude of her to glare!

[kake]

I agree. If you need a seat, say so. People are not psychic.

[booklectica]

Agreed, but see below regarding shyness. And pregnancy is not the most rational time of one's life (in my experience). Glaring is definitely wrong, though.

[kake]

I do think people should make allowances for each other wherever possible, but how do you make allowances for the possibility of someone being too shy to speak up about something they need? There's all kinds of things you might be in need of at any time.

[booklectica]

Oh, there's no solution, except the shy person getting less shy. Which I knew at the time. Didn't help. :)

PS. How are you? Haven't seen you for ages.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_nicolai_/]

Being an arsehole about asserting things you think you have a God-given right to doesn't endear you to anyone, even if they may agree you're entitled to whatever.
This definitely applies to people of the mindset "I've got CHILDREN [or definite potential of children in this case] so you must all make way for me!"

[arkady.livejournal.com]

Both times when pregnant, I regularly gave up my seat to other people who needed it more than I do. Then again, at 7 months' pregnant with my first daughter I was charging around playing Quasar in a black velvet catsuit!

I actually found I needed a seat more in the first couple of weeks after giving birth, as standing up for any length of time was painful - a bit like incredibly bad period pain coupled with sore hip joints. It only bothered me if I was standing around for any length of time though, and most people readily give up their seat to a young woman carrying a newborn baby.

Err

[angryangeltoo.livejournal.com]

pregnant woman are very capable of standing up on a short tube journey, preganacy is not a health problem you know! this woman just took the piss, personally I think you did the right thing by not giving your seat up, it's not a right after all.

Re: Err

[the-alchemist.livejournal.com]

Err... not *all* pregnant women are. Neither are all non-pregnant women. But pregnancy quite often makes people less able to stand.

She should have politely asked, however, rather than just expecting people to be psychic or being rude.

[karen2205]

If she didn't have the self confidence/common sense to ask someone for a seat then I don't see that anyone has done anything wrong by failing to offer her one - particularly when it's not obvious that she's pregnant.

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

I agree.

[the-alchemist.livejournal.com]

I was once feeling extremely ill on a train where there were no seats, and had been going to ask a female passenger whether she'd mind sitting her small child on her knee rather than letting her have a seat to herself, but robert_jones told me this would be an awful thing to do and did everything reasonably within his power to prevent me.

So there certainly *are* people who do not think this would be acceptable. I'm inclined to agree with you, however.

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

My reasoning is that, whether or not it's reasonable to ask for a seat (and, like you, I think it is - the person you ask obviously also has the right to refuse), it's (I hope uncontroversially) unreasonable to blame others for not offering one when they don't realise you need one. And as it's impossible to tell whether other people have realised you need one (short of, you know, actually fainting or something) you can't reasonably expect ever to be spontaneously offered a seat. So the choice is only between asking and willingly suffering - either way not asking and then glaring is rude.

[mirabehn.livejournal.com]

That pretty much sums up my thoughts on the matter too. :-)

[karen2205]

If I'm on a train (as opposed to the tube) I often sit on the floor space between carriages by choice - it's more comfortable & there's more space to knit without elbowing anyone.

I don't recall any time when I've felt very ill on a train, but I'd quite possibly just sit on the floor where I was standing (depending upon space/safety ie. am I going to be tripped over) or move to somewhere where it'd more convenient to sit on the floor.

On a tube, I'd probably ask someone for a seat if I was very ill, 'cos sitting on the floor on a tube train wouldn't be very safe during rush hour.

[booklectica]

I know what you mean, but the combination of being not-obviously pregnant and very shy of strangers is a difficult one. I speak from experience - I've stood on tube journeys when it was uncomfortable, because I couldn't bring myself to ask someone for a seat.

Though someone who glares at strangers probably isn't shy of them, so my experience may not be applicable here.

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

Yes, but I bet you didn't blame any of the other passengers for not realising you needed a seat, which this woman (by her behaviour) obviously did.

[booklectica]

Only a little bit in my head. And I knew it was unfair, and I wouldn't have glared at anyone.

But I did find there was a voice in my head going 'don't these people realise I need to sit down? Why aren't they letting me sit down? I should ask. But I can't. Ow. Argh. Can't talk to strangers. Ow.'

Not my most rational period. :)

[ixwin.livejournal.com]

*grins*

I'd add that it's still polite and a good thing to offer someone a seat if you think they might need it. And that I think it's equally unacceptable to be rude to someone who has offered you a seat if you don't actually need it.

[booklectica]

Absolutely. Not being rude to strangers is a good general rule anyway.

After giving birth I still looked pregnant for some time, and I wouldn't have been offended if someone had offered me a seat then.* Actually, I like sitting down to the extent that I'd take a seat anytime for whatever reason. :)

*They didn't, because I didn't go out, because all my spare time was spent sleeping. :)

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

It really isn't fun being young and invisibly disabled. I'm 27 and have had ME since I was 19, and I have it pretty severely. I only acquired a walking stick a couple of months ago. Before that, I'd have to pluck up my courage to start asking, "Could someone let me sit down? I'm disabled." If you ask in a general way like that, it's unlikely that anyone is going to stand up, and they all glare at you because you look fine (if you know me well enough you might be able to tell when I'm on the point of collapse because I go even paler, but that's about it), and if you target someone in particular you often get unspoken, but very clear, sulks and grumbles. In addition, it took years for me to accept that I would need to label myself as disabled if I wanted any help in this society, it's a horrible thing to have to do and my best friend still disapproves of my using the word. And I'd already had years of discrimination, years of doctors, social services, family saying "healthy young girl like you, what's all this fuss about?" or "please stop going on about it, other people are much worse off than you".

Now I have a walking stick, so everyone has permission to stare at me, and believe me they do. Wobble a bit and everyone's assessing how ill you really are. If I'm lucky I get pitying looks as well. And it doesn't always mean you're guaranteed a seat, either. I use public transport as rarely as possible because it's mostly too painful and exhausting even with a seat, but the business of getting one put me off as well.

[rowan-leigh.livejournal.com]

What word are you supposed to use instead? 'Differently abled' is silly, and a phrase that I'd suspect wasn't actually coined by disabled people.

I quite happily use the word to refer to myself these days, even though my disabilities are mental, not physical.

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

"Chonically ill" is more apt, but you can't really use it in the same way for everything.

[the-alchemist.livejournal.com]

I imagine that if you went round assuming that every woman with a 'minor bulge' was pregnant, a lot more of them would be rude to you and with rather more cause!

[elettaria.livejournal.com]

*holds in stomach*

[cassielalone.livejournal.com]

I usually gladly give up my seat to old people, people with children or just randomly if people look a bit tired. However, when people board (the bus or whatever vehicle I happen to be on) and glare at me as if to say "You should get up!" (Not if they ask, mind. I have no problem with people asking me politely.) I usually stay in my seat and glare back.
But then again, we all know I can be rather insane at times.